Transcript of the Bob Cantrell interview: Part I
Longtime Lake County political powerhouse sits down for Times interview
NWI Times
Apr 30, 2006
nwitimes.com/news/local/transcript-of-the-bob-cantrell-interview-part-i/article_1632dd98-4f00-5a5c-b7a5-69e5a1ca456b.html
On Thursday, six days before the primary elections of 2006, The Times' Joe Carlson sat down with Bob Cantrell in the East Chicago branch office of North Township for a wide-ranging interview on Cantrell's life and the politics that have unfolded around him. Cantrell was candid on many topics, including why he believes the Sidewalk Six scandal happened and why he broke ties, and then reunited again, with East Chicago Mayor Robert Pastrick. Below is a transcript of the interview, which The Times agreed to publish online after Cantrell complained that the press often takes his comments out of context.
Where were you born?
I was born in East Chicago, St. Catherine's Hospital, 1941, November 19, 1941.
It was still a Republican city then, wasn't it?
No, '33. The city turned in '33. The last Republican mayor was done in 1933.
Why did it turn?
I think the Depression in '29 turned the city into a Democratic city, and plus your mills, unions, minorities. They don't vote Republican. Believe me, if anybody knows anything about the Republican-Democratic Party, and how it works -- I've been both ways. I've been with the Republican Party, instrumental all the way from Ted Sendak. I was his campaign manager. I was campaign manager with Gov. Bowen, Gov. Whitcomb, Gov. Orr. I walked the streets with Whitcomb.
Whitcomb appointed you to a board, right?
I was on the state athletic board. I had the license board for two four-year terms, the East Chicago License Bureau. That was appointed by the governor.
That's a patronage job?
At that time it was a very lucrative position. Very lucrative. The last time I got the license bureau, (then-Republican Party Chairman) Joe Kotso had four bureaus. He gave me one. He gave me East Chicago. He had Munster, Highland and Hammond. Joe Kotso had a very lucrative thing going, as county chairman. But they could never beat him. (current Hammond Mayor Tom) McDermott's father ran at him. It's a great story.
We sat down with Tom McDermott Sr., me and about six guys who had donated money. We gave him a set of poll books. He was (Hammond City Judge Joe) Allegretti's bailiff in the courts. And we said, Tom, run for mayor. You could win this thing, as a Republican.
There hadn't been a Republican mayor for quite a long time. So he decided to run. I said, the only thing I want to do is, I want to be county chairman of the Republican Party. He said, OK, I'll be mayor, you be Republican county chairman. I was going to run against Kotso.
As soon as (McDermott Sr.) won there, he declared he was running for county chairman. So he forced me back to Kotso. I was the E.C. city chairman. I was the head of a very powerful -- there was like 43 precincts, and I had 42 of them. I had the votes, I had it worked out. So I went back with Kotso and got together and then McDermott ran against Kotso, and on the floor of the convention, we booed him off the floor. McDermott Sr. went up there as mayor, and every word he said, I had 200 people boo him off the floor. Never forgave me. It was a real thing. He double-crossed me.
Then, they hire me about 10 years later, my son had finished law school, and I called over to (then-U.S. Attorney) John DeGuilio to get my son an internship with the federal prosecutor. And he did, my son. And he said, 'Dad, I met a guy there that's interning, too, who went to Notre Dame.' I said, 'Who's that?' He said, 'Tom McDermott Jr.' I said, 'No kidding. I know his father well.' So my son and McDermott interned with John DeGuilio as federal prosecutors.
Tell me about your athletic achievements
I played high school ball under the legendary John Baratto. We won the state championship, only the second time in Lake County, in 1960. I won the treasured Tressler award for athletic ability and scholastic achievement. We were very famous at the time, 1960, and I got a full scholarship to Michigan. Went to Michigan. I played with the great Cazzie Russell, won the Big Ten championship, and Cazzie went on to be a super-pro. 1964 was when I graduated, and we went to the NCAA Final Four, finished third and got beat. And I then came back here to coach basketball.
And for some reason, I got recruited into politics in '64. Friends of mine came and said, 'You gotta be a Republican and help.' And they took me over to see a guy by the name of Ted Sendak, who was the county chairman. And he was working on running for attorney general. Ted Sendak says, 'You want to join my team?' I said, 'Sure.' So he made me the Republican city chairman in 1965. And by the way, I was fired as Republican chairman four times.
And of course, being the chairman in East Chicago is a very unique situation. You have to be very astute, and very intelligent and very cunning to survive here, as anything, whether it's Republican or Democrat or anything else, because it's always a fast track.
I was chairman under Sendak. I was chairman under Chuck Colyer, I was chairman under Joe Kotso, and I was chairman under Roger Chiabai, who just passed away. And if I had stayed on the Republican side, I could be chairman under John Curley. Because as you see right now, the Republican Party here did a hell of a lot less than I used to do. They only filled 16 precincts, and probably 10 of them are still the ones who I put in eight years ago. So they're still my friends. Curley's in a fight when there's only 16 committeemen filing. Sad. Sad.
In '64, were you a Republican then?
No.
How did you end up being a Republican?
A couple friends of mine got together, and we're sitting one night in a restaurant and they said, 'Why don't we run for office.' I end up filing and running for County Commissioner on the Republican ticket. I was like 22 at the time, or 23. And Sendak was running a candidate, too, and I beat Sendak's candidate. I think my name from basketball made me fairly well-known. And I won the nomination, and I ran against a guy by the name of Stanley Olszewski, who was the county commissioner in 65. I got the nomination and I represented the Republican Party.
That's when there was a lot more people who voted. And you had Republican governors then, and you had a lot of Republicans. Lugar was the mayor of Indy, he was on his way to being senator. If I asked you how many votes you thought I got in that race in the fall against Stanley Olszewski, I don't think you or anybody else could say. How many people vote now in Lake County, in any race? Fifty-thousand, 55,000 maybe. You know what the vote was in that race in 1966, when I ran? How about 101,000 to 97,000. I got 97,000 votes, in 1966.
So your becoming a Republican was kind of an accident?
Just an accident. See, that made me Republican city chairman, and then it was off to the races. See, being a Republican chairman anywhere else but E.C. and Gary was probably not as exciting in as it was in those two cities, because you had some famous guys back then. You had John Krupa, who was the county chairman, and you had a lot of big-name guys, you had Richard Gordon Hatcher, County Commissioners J.J. Forest, Stanley Olszewski.
You're going to send me running to the archives to spell all these names
This is history at its best. I not only was there, I lived it. I saw the Hatcher crew come in. That is the most fantastic political story you could ever have. Because after Hatcher (declared his candidacy for mayor of Gary), two whites jumped into the Gary race. And Hatcher ran. And the whites split the vote and Hatcher won. And then the Republican party ran a guy in the fall, and all the Democrats joined the whites to beat Hatcher. And Hubert Humphrey and Kennedy came in and they threw out 5,000 absentee ballots out of Glen Park and Miller. They threw out 5,000. They were all what you would call now, ghost-voters. ... They end up purging them all, and they guaranteed that Hatcher won, through their fight to knock out the absentee ballots.
I guess not much changes over time.
Well, Lake County, East Chicago, Gary, have always been a very volatile, very interesting, very controversial, very high political interest cities. I've been at the center of it since 1966. Forty years. I could tell you any story you want to know. I could tell you about anybody who's been anybody. Because as a young guy coming in, you meet these guys. I have a picture at home of me and Birch Bayh, when he was U.S. Senator, at a fundraiser.
(Hammond mayor Tom) McDermott asked me the other day to teach his class. You know he teaches that class? And he put 10 names on the board, and said, 'Who do you want as your speaker?' The names were (former Sheriff John) Buncich, (County Commissioner) Fran DuPey, whoever. He said unanimously they picked me. I credit that to the Hammond Times. Because the Hammond Times has made me famous. Sometimes infamous.
How do you feel about your treatment in the media?
Terrible. I think the media is bad. I think the media is horrible. I think the media gives half-truths. I think the media wants to sell newspapers. I think they stretch the truth and they omit some of the truth and they will play on rumor. If they were doing what you're doing, sitting down and getting the facts, I could live with whatever they do.
So you don't think you've gotten a fair shake?
In my opinion, I've gotten, my daughter (county judge Julie Cantrell,) my son (defense attorney John Cantrell), we've all gotten bad press.
What do you think you do that causes this wrath?
I think that, for example, if Philpot runs for clerk, and I get a call from some other powers who say that (former Lake County Councilwoman Bernadette) "Bobbi" Costa's going to run with Fran DuPey's support, and Bobbi Costa wants to be clerk. And I say, 'Now look, ma'am, I'm with Philpot, and we're going to whip your butt.' They run at us, they can't beat us, and they say, 'You're against us.' I say, 'Oh, yeah, 100 percent. I'm against you.'
See, one thing is, I have a unique quality of picking sides. I don't mind picking sides and I will pick sides. And every race I would like to normally, if there's a reason, I would like to pick sides. I picked Philpot, and most of them went with Bobbi Costa, and we won by 13,000 votes (in the 2002 Democratic primary).
One of the criticisms I've heard is that while you can pick sides, you don't really make alliances. That you'll make an alliance with someone and that will just go away over time. Or you'll run two people against each other who you're allied with.
That's not exactly true. I've been with Philpot, solid, solid forever. We're tight. Been with McDermott. We're tight. Been with lot of people. The people that are against me, I've been against.
Fran DuPey, I've been against. Bobbi Costa, I've been against. (County Surveyor) George Van Til, I've been against. (County Treasurer John) Petalas loves me. (North Township Trustee Frank) Mrvan, I've been with Mrvan. I've been with (former North Township Trustee Greg) Cvitkovich. People I'm with, that have won, I don't think you can get them to say one bad word about me. The only people against me are the ones we beat. Seriously. I can't think of anybody else that would be against me, except the people we beat.
(Former County Democratic Party Chairman Stephen "Bob") Stiglich and I were very close, before he died. I met with Stiglich everyday. Stiglich was county chairman, I was like his right-hand guy. And I've been very close to the Pastrick administration. Very close there. Van Til and I, we rarely pick the same candidates. He's usually off on his. Like this last time, (the 2005 party appointment of Lake County Treasurer) he took (former County Councilman Ron) Tabaczynski and I took (former Merrillville councilman John) Petalas.
Van Til and I have the same role. And I'm not knocking George in any respect. George is good at what he does. He's a good politician. He's come up through the ranks. He's chosen to be an elected official, I've chosen not to be. I'd rather make my money being a superintendent of schools or an educator. There's a lot more money. Elected officials don't make any money. I made more money in the 80s, being athletic director here. I was making $85,000 bucks, and I've invested my money well. I'm not hurting.
You've got to keep act active, though. I have the strong philosophy that as you get older, you've got to be pro-active. You can't lay around the house. Do I have to work here (in the township)? No. This kind of keeps me in tune with the political scene here in East Chicago. I was born and raised here. I'm comfortable here.
Bottom line, I think the people that like me, like me because I supported their candidacies. The people that dislike me, I can't see too many out there that dislike me. I was always a (county Democratic Chairman) Rudy Clay guy, too. Rudy Clay and I have always had a good rapport. I think he's kind of out-stretched his boundaries this time by being mayor and still being on the ballot trying to win as commissioner. I think it's going to blow up on him. I don't see how he's going to win as commissioner. But that's another story.
What are your thoughts about Charlie Dahlin?
Charlie Dahlin. Well that's a name out of the past. He's was a good friend of mine. He was a politico, of course. He was very controversial. Did a lot of things. Played the Republican Party. Was kicked out of the Republican Party. Was back in the Republican Party. He did a lot of manipulating and was pro-active. He was director of Civil Defense for Hammond under the Joe Klein administration. And then he was always a survivor, and always been controversial. But he crossed Ted Sendak, and he destroyed him. He destroyed his reputation and his credibility and everyone portrays him as being the bad guy now. But yet, Charlie Dahlin was a very hard worker, he did a lot for the Republican Party. Just, he got caught up in that Nicosia-Jeorse mayor's election of 1963. Charlie Dahlin was the Republican city chairman in 1963, and he supported Jeorse. And Sendak, when it was over with, with the Republican elections here, he found cause to fire him, throw him out, and destroy him.
He was a player for decades after that.
Decades. He was like me. Been around a long time, been involved in many things. And he worked at it and filed committeemen. And was close to a lot of different Republican people, plus, Charlie had the unique quality of being close to the Democrats, too. Kind of like the person you're talking to. I was friends with Democrats, Republicans. It didn't matter, still don't matter to me. Although (current Republican Chairman John) Curley has chosen not to want my help, which is alright.
But you need that natural animosity so that, at the polls, they can police each other. So that the Republicans can make sure the Democrats don't play games.
There is no fight between Republicans and Democrats. There is no, what they call, schism? Isn't that what the word is? When you're talking about history? A schism between different political factions? There is none. The Republicans and Democrats here are technically together, in one way or the other. Whether it was Sendak, Colyer, Kotso, Chiabai, Curley. The whole county. They're all together, in one way or the other. If you had four, five hours, I could tell you how every one of them are tied, how the Democrats and Republicans are tied together. There is no --
[Cantrell's phone rings.] Hello? How you doing? Jump to Fontanez, yeah, I heard the same story. I believe it probably is. We'll probably need to reach out to him tomorrow and use this weekend to get some, yeah. I'll find out. I'll find out. I'll take care of it. I'm sitting here with one of your friends, Joe Carlson with the Hammond Times. We're doing a history of Lake County politics. Alright, I'll talk to you. Bye. [He clicks phone closed.]
My son. There's a group of Latins that jumped from Villalpando to Fontanez. I gotta track it.
[Returning to original question.] The system is set up to have the Democrats and Republicans work together in certain areas, which ties into -- and the catalyst in the whole mess is the election board. The county clerk heads the election board, and you have two R's on one end, and you've got two D's on the other, and you have five votes. Curley has the two R's, Clay has the two D's, and Philpot, the elected clerk.
See, what people don't understand is, when it's Democrat versus Democrat, it's a different fight than when it's Democrat versus Republican. I believe all the Republican chairmen and myself as city chairman fought the Democrats in November. It's just in May, there's a lot of interworking between county chairmen, Republican and Democrat.
And even our illustrious governor has come in here, and worked with Democratic groups to get support and make himself better.
The specific thing here is, Republican poll workers being able to check the Democrats, making sure the Democrats don't steal the election at the polls... Is it okay to have these non-Republicans working as quote-unquote Republicans at the polls?
Well, to me, it doesn't really matter. How you vote is, number one, if you're honest, two, you're in there -- you know, the way things are now, you'd be silly to get involved in any vote fraud. Because they're out hammering everybody. I mean, they're putting people in jail for that s--t. They indicted how many here recently? Eighteen, 20, 25 people?
They were indicted over vote fraud. Now you'd be stupid to try to steal votes, whether you're Democrat or Republican. Just because I declare myself a Democrat or a Republican, does that mean I'm going in the polls to steal? Because you got two Democrats? No way. That's the fallacy of them saying, you steal Elections are people, and people are not stupid. These people go to the polls, I don't care if you have seven Democrats at a poll, which you normally have. There's an occasional Republican here. They gotta be crazy to steal. Because everyone's going to jail. Someone's going to roll, catch them. There have been people. A committeeman in East Chicago years ago, went to jail, him and his whole crew went to jail. Now they're indicting people for voting out of their precinct. It's not worth it. Not worth going to jail, over, how many votes can you steal? Ten? Fifteen? It's ridiculous.
You can steal a lot of votes with absentee ballots.
Now, that's a different game. But you know, there's a paper trail there, too. You get tracked, messing around with absentees. Some of these people are indicted because they picked up the absentees and mailed it. Stupid. The law is very clear. It says you can't mail someone else's absentee. And that's what some of these people did. They picked up five or 10 absentees. There's one of the black committeemen in East Chicago, she got indicted on 10 counts. She picked up all her neighbor's absentees and mailed it. That's it. Is that against the law? Yes it is. Do they know it's against the law? No. Did you know you can't mail someone else's absentee, even though it's sealed and covered and everything else?
Maybe the feds can't charge you with filling out someone's ballot because they didn't see you do it, but they know you mailed it.
This has nothing to do with the feds. It's a state charge. This is all (Lake County Prosecutor) Bernie Carter and the other Carter, (state Attorney General Steve Carter). The feds don't do the vote fraud business. It's all state. And how many times in the history of Lake County has the state prosecutor ever indicted anybody on the Democratic side for vote fraud? It's very rare. This is the first time it's happened. And why is it happening? Because the attorney general came in here and they got the county prosecutor, Bernie Carter, to go along with it.
What it's operating in this environment now, with all these watchers and officials and agents running around?
It's like I told you before. People don't steal votes. People don't care. It's not that important. There's no conspiracy. In the old days, when you had the machines, it was organized and it was tough. But now, there's no machines left. You go to Gary, and -- You know what tells the whole story. Look at the percentage of people that vote. If you were stealing votes and it was organized, you had a machine, you'd get a hell of a lot more than 22 percent of people to vote. If they were voting 65 or 70 percent, you'd say, hey man, that's an awful high vote. Something is going on over there. But when they only put up 25 percent, no one's stealing votes. Come on, it's ridiculous. You don't do it. But you don't sell newspapers if there's no vote fraud.
And the Republican Party in Indiana has become very shrewd. This voter ID business, that's definitely hit the minority Democrats, who will go to the polls here next Tuesday and walk into there without an ID and they'll say, 'You can't vote here without an ID.' 'What do you mean? I've been voting all my life, I've lived here all my life.' 'Where's your ID?' 'I don't have a driver's license, I don't have a state ID.' Then they get you on a provisional. That says you can sign in and vote, but then you have to go prove who you are. How many people in East Chicago are going to vote provisional? 100? 200? 300? How many of that 300 are going to go to Crown Point and prove who they are? You know probably how many? None. All of a sudden the Republican Party has knocked out 300 Democrat votes that would have been solid here.
But if the Republican Party does that, and if the Democrat Party is smart, they'll organize and they'll ID the people that need IDs and they'll get them IDs. It hasn't been done yet, but who cares with this. But this next year, this mayor's race, in Hammond and Gary, the Democrats will come up with a solution for the ID problem. It's to their advantage to get organized.
One thing about politics and about winning, it's just like playing basketball. If you're organized, you're well-coached, you're well-disciplined, you win. In politics, to run a campaign, you pick the right race, you pick the right candidate, you raise enough money, you get enough people helping you in different cities, in every city in the county, it's probably a win.
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